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Advice to New Players - Ogre Wars Manual - Tips

Discussion in 'Ogre Wars' started by vyeh, Apr 8, 2010.

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  1. vyeh

    vyeh Ogre Wars Hall of Fame

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    (1) Be sure to put your gold away.

    If you put it into defense, you protect yourself from having the gold taken away in two ways:

    (a) increased defense decreases your chance of losing (and losing gold);

    (b) little gold in your treasury for the attacker to take.

    You should put at least half of the gold into defense and some players would urge you to put all of the gold into defense.
     
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  2. vyeh

    vyeh Ogre Wars Hall of Fame

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    (2) There is a random factor in combat that can change the odds.

    The winner of combat is determined by comparing the offense of the attacker to the defense of the defender. However, the offense of the attacker is not the offense rating shown in the village overview screen and the defense of the defender is not the defense rating in the village overview screen.

    The offense and defense used in combat can vary by as much as 50% from the offense and defense rating shown in the village overview screen. So if both the attacker and defender have ratings (offense in the case of the attacker and defense in the case of the defender) of 1000, the offense and defense in combat can range from 500 to 1500.

    In the extreme:

    (1) the attacker could get an offense of 1500 and the defender could get a defense of 500 (for odds of 3-1); or

    (2) the attacker could get an offense of 500 and the defender could get a defense of 1500 (for odds of 1-3).

    Although the extreme cases are highly unlikely (the probability of each case is
    0.01%), this is the breakdown of the probability of the other four outcomes:

    the attacker wins by 2-1 odds 1/16th of the time
    the attacker wins by 1-1 odds 7/16ths of the time
    the attacker loses by 1-1 odds 7/16th of the time
    the attacker loses by 1-2 odds 1/16th of the time

    Although there is not much difference between winning by 3-1 or 2-1 or 1-1 in terms of the gold taken (the winning attacker takes gold equal to his surviving troop strength up to the amount of gold the loser has; the losing attacker takes no gold; the defender never takes gold), there is a difference between winning by 3-1 or 2-1 or 1-1 (or losing by 1-3 or 1-2 or 1-1) in terms of the casualties suffered (which I plan to discuss in a later installment). Note that the casualties suffered by a winning attacker does affect the surviving troop strength, which determines the limit on the amount of gold taken.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 10, 2010
  3. vyeh

    vyeh Ogre Wars Hall of Fame

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    (3) Although combat casualties are a function of both combat odds and the troop strength of the enemy, the troop strength of the enemy makes a greater contribution.

    This is one of the two key elements to my strategy (the other is to engage a single defender with two or more attackers).

    Your combat casualties are equal to the product of (1) a factor based on the combat odds and (2) the enemy's troop strength.

    In mathematical terms,

    Combat casualties = (odds factor) * (enemy's troop strength)

    This is the way the odds factor is determined. Take the offense of the attacker and the defense of the defender (after the random factor has been applied to both, see post #2 above). The higher number is the winner. Call that the winner's rating. Call the other the loser's rating.

    The odds are the winner's rating to the defender's rating, rounded down to nearest integer. So if the winner has 1250 and the loser has 900, the odds are 1-1.

    For 1-1 odds, the winner loses 9% of the loser's troop strength and the loser loses 11% of the winner's troop strength.

    Here is a table:

    Odds, Winner's loss as a percentage of the loser's troop strength, Loser's loss as a percentage of the winner's troop strength

    1-1, 9, 11
    2-1, 8, 12
    3-1, 7, 13
    4-1, 6, 14
    5-1, 5, 15
    6-1, 4, 16
    7-1, 3, 17
    8-1, 2, 18
    9-1, 1, 19
    10-1 and above, 0, 20.

    Note that if you go from losing at 1-1 to winning at 1-1, your losses go from 11% of the enemy to 9% of the enemy, which is an 18% change. If your opponent goes from being 10% larger than you to being 10% smaller than you, your losses are reduced by 20%.

    Unless you can achieve 10-1 odds, you should be careful about attacking an enemy with greater troop strength than you. E.g. suppose you can get 2-1 odds against someone double your size.

    You would lose 8% of the enemy's troop strength and the enemy would lose 12% of your troop strength. Because he is double your size, the enemy would lose only 6% of his troop strength, which means you end up losing more troops even though you won at 2-1.

    On the other hand, you can lose at 1-1 odds but still lose less troops than the enemy if the enemy is at 75% of your troop strength. You end up losing 8.25% of your troop strength and the enemy ends up losing 9% of your troop strength.

    This leads to the tactic of growing to the point where the enemy is at (or just over) 75% of your troop strength and then attacking. If you can get to this position and can achieve losing 1-1 or 1-2 odds, you can dominate a stronger enemy and prevent him from getting above you in troop count.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 10, 2010
  4. vyeh

    vyeh Ogre Wars Hall of Fame

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    (4) Exchange information in your private forums.

    Whenever you attack or are attacked, you gain information about the enemy in the battle reports (either under your offense history or your defense history or on the enemy's village page).

    The offense or defense of the enemy will vary by up to 50% from the true value.

    If the "real" value is 1000, the reported value could range from 500 to 1500.

    If the reported value is 1000, the real value could range from 667 to 2000, which means that the reported value in a subsequent attack could range from 334 to 4000. This range can be narrowed if there are multiple battle reports in a short time.

    This information could help another village in your nation. At low troop levels, spies are very expensive to get good intel. Exchanging battle reports is a good way to figure out what the enemy has.

    You can also exchange information about the propensities of particular players.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 10, 2010
  5. vyeh

    vyeh Ogre Wars Hall of Fame

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    (5) Coordinate attacks.

    The other keystone (the first one is maximizing positional advantage or minimizing positional disadvantage) to my tactics is engaging a single defender with two or more attackers.

    Suppose you have two attackers that can achieve losing 1-2 odds on a single defender and all three start with 1000 troops.

    Call the two attackers A and B and the defender is X.

    A attacks X at 1-2 losing odds. A loses 12% of 1000 and X loses 8% of 1000.

    After the attack, A has 880 troops, B has 1000 troops and X has 920 troops.

    Now B attacks X at 1-2 odds. B loses 12% of 920 and X loses 8% of 1000.

    After the attack, A has 880 troops, B has 890 troops and X has 840 troops.

    Now B attacks X at 1-2 odds. B loses 12% of 840 and X loses 8% of 890.

    After the attack, A has 880 troops, B has 790 troops and X has 769 troops.

    Now A attacks X at 1-2 odds. A loses 12% of 769 and X loses 8% of 880.

    After the attack, A has 788 troops, B has 790 troops and X has 699 troops.

    Now B attacks X at 1-2 odds. B loses 12% of 699 and X loses 8% of 790.

    After the attack, A has 788 troops, B has 707 troops and X has 636 troops.

    Now A attacks X at 1-2 odds. A loses 12% of 636 and X loses 8% of 788.

    After the attack, A has 712 troops, B has 707 troops and X has 573 troops.

    Now A attacks X at 1-2 odds. A loses 12% of 573 and X loses 8% of 712.

    After the attack, A has 644 troops, B has 707 troops and X has 517. Note that B can no longer attack X as X has less than 75% of B's troop strength.

    So A attacks X at 1-2 odds. A loses 12% of 517 and X loses 8% of 644.

    After the attack, A has 582 troops, B has 707 troops and X has 466 troops.

    Now A attacks X at 1-2 odds. A loses 12% of 466 and X loses 8% of 582.

    After the attack, A has 527 troops, B has 707 troops and X has 420 troops.

    Now A attacks X at 1-2 odds. A loses 12% of 420 and X loses 8% of 527.

    After the attack, A has 477 troops, B has 707 troops and X has 378 troops.

    Now A attacks X at 1-2 odds. A loses 12% of 378 and X loses 8% of 477.

    After the attack, A has 432 troops, B has 707 troops and X has 340 troops.

    Now A attacks X at 1-2 odds. A loses 12% of 340 and X loses 8% of 432.

    After the attack, A has 392 troops, B has 707 troops and X has 306 troops.

    Now A attacks X at 1-2 odds. A loses 12% of 306 and X loses 8% of 392.

    After the attack, A has 356 troops, B has 707 troops and X has 275 troops.

    Now A attacks X at 1-2 odds. A loses 12% of 275 and X loses 8% of 356.

    After the attack, A has 323 troops, B has 707 troops and X has 247 troops.

    Now A attacks X at 1-2 odds. A loses 12% of 247 and X loses 8% of 323.

    After the attack, A has 294 troops, B has 707 troops and X has 222 troops.

    Now A attacks X at 1-2 odds. A loses 12% of 247 and X loses 8% of 294.

    After the attack A has 265 troops, B has 707 troops and X has 199 troops.

    Now A attacks X at 1-2 odds. A loses 12% of 199 and X loses 8% of 265.

    After the attack A has 242 troops, B has 707 troops and X has 178. Note that A can no longer attack X!

    Now suppose X attacks A at 2-1 odds. A loses 12% of 178 or 21 troops (8.6% of A's troop strength) and X loses 8% of 242 or 19 troops (10.6% of X's troop strength).

    After this hypothetical counterattack, A has 221 troops, B has 707 troops and X has 159 troops.

    If X counterattacked again at 2-1 odds, A would lose 12% of 159 or 19 troops (8.6%) and X would lose 8% of 221 or 17 troops (10.6%).

    After this hypothetical counterattack, A would have 202 troops, B would have 707 troops and X would have 142 troops.

    Another hypothetical counterattack: A would lose 12% of 142 troops or 17 troops and X would lose 8% of 202 troops or 16 troops. A would have 185 troops, B would have 707 troops and X would have 126 troops.

    Another hypothetical counterattack (X is really angry and keeps hitting the attack key): A would lose 12% of 126 troops or 15 troops and X would lose 8% of 185 troops or 14 troops. A would have 170 troops, B would have 707 troops and X would have 112 troops.

    Again (X is very angry): A would lose 12% of 112 troops or 13 troops and X would lose 8% of 170 troops or 13 troops. Now X is losing as many troops as A! A would have 157 troops, B would have 707 troops and X would have 99 troops.

    Again: A would lose 12% of 99 or 11 troops and X would lose 8% of 157 or 12 troops. X has lost more troops than A!. A would have 146 troops, B would have 707 troops and X would have 87 troops.

    Again: A would lose 12% of 87 or 10 troops and X would lose 8% of 146 or 11 troops. A would have 136 troops, B would have 707 troops and X would have 76 troops.

    Again: A would lose 12% of 76 troops or 9 troops and X would lose 8% of 136 or 10 troops. A would have 127 troops, B would have 707 troops and X would have 66 troops.

    Again: A would lose 12% of 66 troops or 7 troops and X would lose 8% of 127 or 10 troops. A would have 120 troops, B would have 707 troops and X would have 56 troops.

    At this point, we need to consider the minimum troop rule. A further attack would take X below 50 troops. On the next cycle, X would be restored to 50 troops. X could continue attacking A and bring A down to the minimum troop level.

    What is the point of this? All three players started at 1000. A has lost 880 troops, B has lost 293 troops and X has lost 944 troops, so A and B's nation has lost more troops.

    The point is that after X has grown tired of counterattacking A, A recruits back to B's level and X chases after A (staying below 75% of A). While A and X are recruiting, B is converting turns to gold and buying more offense or more defense. Once A has met up with B, X now has to stay 75% below B and A can build more offense and defense.

    If X is not a Gold Beast, X can only convert turns to gold at 75% of the rate at which A and B does and eventually, A and B can increase their offense to the point where they could make losing 1-1 attacks and then maybe winning 1-1 attacks. (Even if X is a Gold Beast with the +25% income bonus, X could convert turns to gold at only 93.75% of the rate A and B.)

    The key lesson: It is possible for two weaker players to take down a single stronger player if they work together and they are patient. I deliberately used the two players who could only muster 1-2 losing attacks to make the point and to also bring up the concept of the minimum troop level.

    See post #18 for an example from the last game illustrating this point.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2010
  6. vyeh

    vyeh Ogre Wars Hall of Fame

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    (6) Mix buying weapons or armor with buying training levels.

    The formula for offense or defense is (1 + nation bonus)(1 + sum of the powers of all weapons or armor)(1 + training level bonus) + number of troops + 1. If you have a single weapon or a single armor, the number of troops will be insignificant.

    Take a look at your offense or defense before you buy a weapon or armor. Then buy that weapon or armor. Take a look at how much your offense or defense increases. If you buy a second weapon or armor, your offense or defense will increase by the same amount.

    Figure out what the percentage increase in your offense or defense is. Divide that percentage increase by the cost in gold. Call that number weapon or armor purchasing power.

    Now calculate the percentage increase for buying a training level. (If you currently having a 20% bonus and you are contemplating buying the next level of 40%, the percentage increase is (140% - 120%)/120%.) Divide that percentage increase by the cost in gold. Call that number training purchasing power.

    Ideally, you would want to buy a new level of training when the training purchasing power exceeded the weapon or armor purchasing power. There might be other considerations, like the inability to save up the gold because you could be attacked and lose.
     
  7. vyeh

    vyeh Ogre Wars Hall of Fame

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    (7) Fire your spies.

    At low levels, spies are a drain on your natural gold income and they do not provide much intel. Each spy adds 1% to the intel accuracy. If you have 5 spies (the starting allotment) and you conduct a spy mission against someone that has no spies, it will cost you 1 turn and you will have a successful spy mission. However, you will only get 5% intel accuracy.

    This 5% is deceptive. The amount of gold, the offense value and the defense value of the enemy are independently randomized ranging from 5% of the true value to 195% of the true value.

    If the enemies offensive rating is 1000, defensive rating is 1000 and gold is 1000, your spies will report values for these ratings ranging from 50 to 1950.

    If your spy reports a value of 1000, the true value could be anything from 513 to 20000. So if the 1000 represents the spy reported defensive value, you would know the enemy has at least 513 defense but could have up to 20,000 defense. Unless you have a very weak offense (< 1000) and realize you shouldn't attack, this doesn't help you in deciding whether to attack!

    For 50 spies, the case is better. If the real value is 1000, the reported value ranges from 500 to 1500.

    If the reported value is 1000, the real value ranges from 667 to 2000. Now you are in a better position to decide whether to attack.

    Note that if you have a battle report, the number provided has the same variability as a spy mission with 50 spies. So if you already have attacked the enemy, you have a number equivalent to a 50 spy mission. Better yet, if someone in your nation has attacked the enemy and posted the battle report, you have that number without spending the gold to purchase spies or using the turn to run a spy report. And posting battle reports doesn't cost the other person any gold or turns.

    For 100 spies, the reported value is the real value.

    In addition to 5 spies providing little guidance in attacking, each spy costs 1 gold per cycle (there are 4 cycles in an hour). For a small village, the natural gold income of 10 gold per cycle (13 in the case of the Gold Beasts) is significant in building up offense or defense. So fire those spies.

    Do spies have any use?

    Yes, but you only need one spy master per alliance. The other members of the alliance can benefit from the spy reports without investing in spies or paying the spy's maintenance.

    Since spies cost the same regardless of village size and any village can attempt a spy mission on any other village regardless of size, the largest village in a coalition can purchase spies with fewer turns and conduct spy missions for one turn per mission and report the results to the other villages.

    It is a great way for larger villages to help smaller villages. A 100% accurate spy report can determine which enemy villages have no offense that the smaller village can scamper by. In the last session, there was this one opponent that focused only on defense, so we told some very weak villages that it was OK to go past him. (It would have been better for his nation in the long run if he had some offense so he could have stopped those villages; later, after converting gold at an advantage to him for a few weeks, they were able to help keep him contained.)

    For a larger village, the loss of natural income is insignificant. Most income comes from converting turns. There is a bug that makes spies even more attractive. Spies do not desert if there is not enough gold to pay them, despite what the text in the game says.

    In the last game, I invested in 2000 spies (there was an enemy village that had 1000+ spies and I really wanted to see that village's offense). That cost 100000 gold. Since I was at a 300000 troop cap, that was one third of the gold I got from converting 5 turns.

    After the mission, I waited for the spies to desert (I spent the rest of my gold on offense). They didn't. Since spies cost 50 gold and cost 1 gold per cycle, in the absence of the bug, it would make sense to fire the spies if I didn't expect to use them for 50 cycles (12.5 hours). However, those 2000 spies were only costing me my natural income of 10 gold per cycle. Since they cost 100000, I would only fire them if I didn't expect to use them for 2500 hours (over 100 days).

    Keeping them was very useful in preventing surprises. Enemies continue to convert turns into gold and buying offense and defense. We found that some of the enemy that had been purely defensive (and who might be expected to remain defensive since we were successfully attacking them frequently) had built up significant offense.

    Our strategy up to that point had been to pound the enemies with large offense (those enemy can choose to attack us; the purely defensive ones can't, so we can choose when we wish to engage in combat); this unexpected move could have been a surprise when one of our raiders was replenishing troops (part of our strategy was for raiders to return to the troop cap to increase their offense and defense to counter the increasing offense and defense of the enemy; you get more gold for turns the larger you are).

    Having the spies also helped when a crafty opponent sold a lot of defense and bought offense.

    If the enemy has spies, your spies and his spies battle it out. What is critical is the number of spies on both sides, the random factor which can change the strength of each side from 50% to 150% and the intel bonus.

    Suppose each side has 200 spies and the spying side has a +25% intel bonus and the target has none. Then the odds in the absence of the random factor would be 250 to 200.

    With the random factor, the spying side can range from 375 to 125 and the target can range from 300 to 100.

    Spy casualties are similar to combat casualties except you always lose a spy if there is any opposing spies. E.g. if you have 2000 spies and the other side has one spy, you both lose a spy.

    If there are any surviving spies in the target, you will not find out about the gold. If you win, you will find out about the offense, defense and gold (assuming there are no surviving spies).

    While a spy mission against you does not generate a PM (like attack raids against you do), you can see if there has been a spy mission by checking your defense history. Sometimes players will run spy missions before they attack.
     
  8. vyeh

    vyeh Ogre Wars Hall of Fame

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    (8) Use the largest villages and richest villages page.

    You can glean some information from these two pages. Since you can't be attacked by anyone who has over 134% of your troop strength, you can figure out who you have to worry about.

    The richest villages pages can help identify good targets; it also identifies targets that have put less gold into their defense.

    You can identify players who have abandoned the game by pasting their name in place of "ogreman" in the following URL

    GameOgre.com Free MMORPG Forums - View Profile: ogreman

    and checking the last activity date.

    If they haven't been around for weeks, they may be a good target.

    You can identify who is logged in by looking at the bottom of the forum index page.

    Sometimes it is better to attack someone who can't immediately respond. It will allow you to make preparations (e.g. use your winnings to buy defense).
     
  9. vyeh

    vyeh Ogre Wars Hall of Fame

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    (9) Use diplomacy.

    Communicate with players, both in and outside your nation. Trading information about a common enemy is mutually beneficial. The information doesn't cost the informing side and later the informed side may be able to reciprocate.

    An truce between two players with the same number of troops not to attack each other and weaken each other in the face of a common enemy may also be mutually beneficial.

    Other forms of diplomacy (truce between nations, cooperative attacks against the third nation) need to be done at the national level. Do participate in these discussions. This diplomacy can affect you. If there is a truce, you may be able to put more turns into recruiting and less into converting gold.
     
  10. vyeh

    vyeh Ogre Wars Hall of Fame

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    (10) Read this forum.

    You can often learn what other players are doing. If you feel inclined, post. Please be civil. If you are upset because you have been attacked by another player, find a third player to attack him. Create alliances. For individual play, this game favors the player that has been active longest.

    However, cooperative action can negate this advantage.

    Good luck! I hope you enjoy this game and I hope this thread has been useful. One of the complaints in the last game was that there was no manual for new players.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2010
  11. Admin Post
    ogreman

    ogreman Ogre In Charge Staff Member GameOgre Admin

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    Thanks Vyeh:). This thread will be stickied and will be used as a manual for the game.
     
  12. vyeh

    vyeh Ogre Wars Hall of Fame

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    Please note that this is advice to new players. Experienced players will modify the advice to suit their strategy.
     
  13. awesomedrako

    awesomedrako Clubbed

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    Do you mind if I copy this over to the Wiki?
     
  14. vyeh

    vyeh Ogre Wars Hall of Fame

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    No. In fact, I want to thank you for your contribution. I learned a lot of this from our battles and discussions afterwards.

    As you know, I am not playing in the current session. I asked a friend to PM me the richest villages page and you weren't on the list.

    I am glad that you think this thread should go into your wikipedia. I only ask that you incorporate post#12 in some form. As you know, there are many wrinkles to the game. I certainly did not talk about selling defense and buying offense and the circumstances in which that might be effective. Perhaps you could add something to the wikipedia article.

    Thank you for contributing to an enjoyable game for me. One of the highlights of my game was using the revenge clause and three well-timed attacks by ogreman to send you to the minimum troop level even though you had greater defense than my offense, thus proving post #5.

    I believe I recounted that in the Attacks thread and that might be more wiki friendly than a bunch of calculations.

    This is sort of a good-bye if neither of us is playing, since we will have little reason to post unless it is to answer questions or reminisce about the last game (although it probably wasn't a lot of fun for you at the end).

    After you create the wiki article, could you post a link in this thread?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2010
  15. awesomedrako

    awesomedrako Clubbed

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    Don't mention it vyeh, thanks for the permission!
     
  16. vyeh

    vyeh Ogre Wars Hall of Fame

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    Don't forget to post the link.
     
  17. awesomedrako

    awesomedrako Clubbed

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    I'm still playing Ogre Wars btw, the Ironheads need some serious help ;). And I will give you credit for the guide, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!!! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

    And what do you mean by rounded down to the nearest integers in section 3?

    I've posted the guide for now, awaiting your answer though. And here are the links:

    Ogre Wars - Beginner's Guide
    Ogre Wars - Beginner's Guide, Part 2
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2010
  18. vyeh

    vyeh Ogre Wars Hall of Fame

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    On the last attack (the one at the top), your defense rating was 646878170, and my attack rating was 201040040. Take the winner's number (you) and divide it by the loser's number (me) and you get 3.21. Rounded down to the nearest integer it is 3-1. So I lost 13% of your troop strength and you lost 7% of my troop strength.

    Take the second attack (second to the bottom). Your defense rating was 651901010. My attack rating was 238528203. Take the winner's number and divide it by the loser's number and you get 2.73. Rounded down to the nearest integer it is 2-1 (not 3-1).

    This example, from the last game, illustrates post #3. Because the revenge clause was operational, I could attack awesomedrako for 48 hours after he attacked me.

    This was pretty brutal on my village as I lost a lot of troops; but this was the turning point in my opinion of the last game.

    I was able to get great positional advantage after I persuaded ogreman to attack awesomedrako 3 times (awesomedrako believed at that time in taking on the two most experienced Ironheads at the same time - the exact opposite of my suggestion in post #5).

    At the end of these attacks, he was at 0 troops and I had lost more than half of my troops.

    While he was recruiting his way back up, my teammates including newer players shivers89 and zmoney were building up their strength. I also had the chance to get back to the troop cap and spend a little team building up my strength.

    When awesomedrako got close to the top, I was ready and using positional advantage, I kept attacking him. Although I would often lose, I was able to create a situation where shivers89 and zmoney were building up their offense and defense a lot faster than awesomedrako.

    Then I returned to the troop cap with awesomedrako following me only to be met by shivers89 who proceeded to attack him, allowing me and other teammmates to build up my troops.

    I hope this example might help new players understand post #5.

    Awesomedrako, the Ironheads really need your leadership. I would suggest that you seek an alliance.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2010
  19. awesomedrako

    awesomedrako Clubbed

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    I'm really not concentrating hard enough on Ogre Wars at the moment, so I'm trying to help, but not as much as I could.

    And I get the integers now. I think the rest of the guide is understandable enough to new players, though they might have to think about it a little first.
     
  20. vyeh

    vyeh Ogre Wars Hall of Fame

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    A little thought isn't bad ...

    As you know, the game can get very complicated once you have multiple players engaged in combat.
     
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